Well, my Cosmere Chickens, here we are. The Tower falls, our heroes are in danger, and things look as if they can’t possibly get any worse. Which, of course, means that they will get worse, and in spectacular fashion, but for now we’re left here in the darkness to theorize and speculate. Why is it specifically the garnets that Raboniel inverts in the Sibling’s gem matrix? Does Lirin have a point, or is he almost as much a monster as Moash? Will Kaladin ever come to terms with the wretch within him and swear that Fourth Ideal? And why is he the only Windrunner still functioning when all the others have fallen unconscious? We’ll discuss these subjects (and more) in this week’s installment of the Stormlight Archive reread. Won’t you join us?
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion there are the usual vague Mistborn references in the Epigraphs section, but that’s about it.
Heralds: Vedel (Vedel). Edgedancers. Loving/Healing. Role: Healer.
Jezrien (Jezerezeh, Yaezir, Ahu), Herald of Kings. Windrunners. Protecting/Leading. Role: King.
A: In a slight inversion, Vedel is likely representing Kaladin and his efforts at healing, as well as his healer role. Jezrien, instead of reflecting his Windrunner, is IMO here for Navani’s work to protect and lead her people.
Icon: Banner and Spears, for a Kaladin POV (shared).
Epigraph:
However, though you think not as a mortal, you are their kin. The power of Odium’s Shard is more dangerous than the mind behind it. Particularly since any Investiture seems to gain a will of its own when not controlled.
A: Somehow the phrasing of that first sentence cracks me up. I mean… I guess it’s accurate, but Hoid was a mortal once upon a time, right? I suppose the ways in which he was changed by the Dawnshard make him merely “kin” to mortals, and that with his longevity means he doesn’t entirely think like one. It seems that Harmony is pretty confident in his assertion that Hoid doesn’t entirely understand the Shards and how they function.
Also, how much does Harmony see the future? This is totally foreshadowing the death of Rayse at the end of the book, isn’t it? Is it implying that Rayse was losing control of the power? Did the Shard itself block Rayse from seeing the threat posed by Nightblood, so that Rayse could be killed and it could find a new Vessel?
L: This definitely reads to me as if Rayse had lost control. The question now is, which is more dangerous… Odium controlling itself, or Taravangian controlling it?
A: And that’s a question we cannot answer. Both are pretty frightening. Wrath with no balancing values of mercy, justice, humor, etc. is very dangerous, but that same power controlled by a nearly amoral person with an “ends justify the means” attitude… yikes. Tyranny exercised “for your own good” (as defined by the tyrant) is a terrifying thing.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Navani
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1175.4.6.3 (immediately following Chapter 38)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Overall Reactions
I am the Sibling, the pen wrote in a quick script. I am the spren of this tower The enemy They are They are doing something to me This is bad You need to infuse— Red the Lightweaver—who had been standing near the door—suddenly collapsed to the floor.
L: This gives me the chills. The tension is really being ratcheted up here, and it’s not going to let up from now until pretty much the end of the book.
A: Coming on the heels of Teft’s collapse and Kaladin’s inability to use his Lashings, seeing Red collapse just like Teft is bad enough. Knowing (as we do) what Raboniel has done, it’s agonizing to watch as they begin to see isolated effects and have no idea what is happening in the rest of the tower.
The sun had set, though fading sunlight painted the sky, so he could see the hundreds of flying figures—trailing long clothing and infused with Voidlight—descending upon the tower. “You were wrong, Rlain,” Kaladin said.
“It’s not a raid. This is an invasion.”
L: ::shivers:: This paints such an evocative mental image.
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
A: Doesn’t it, though? We knew the Heavenly Ones were coming, but to see it through Kaladin’s eyes is so much more effective.
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
“I didn’t notice it at first, but the rhythms are going crazy. I can faintly hear new ones in the distance. I don’t much like them. They sound like the rhythms I hear during an Everstorm.”
A: I’m curious about this one. Does the inversion of that particular protection (the garnet group) affect the rhythms in the tower? Is it the presence of so many Fused and Regals? Or is it the partial corruption of the Sibling and the fact that there’s now Voidlight infiltrating the tower systems? I guess the first and third of those are connected, aren’t they?
L: Very interesting. Garnet is associated with blood and the Lightweavers, and hence is also associated with the Lightweaver Surges of Illumination and Transformation. I would theorize that there’s something going on here in regards to Transformation rather than Illumination. (It just doesn’t seem like Illumination could be “important” enough to be affecting something as major as the protections around the Tower.) Something about the connection between the Sibling and the Cognitive Realm, perhaps?
A: You know, I hadn’t even thought about “why garnets?”—which is a dreadful oversight on my part. Transformation does make a lot more sense than Illumination, for sure. “Blood and non-oil liquids” must be part of the equation, but I’m not sure how.
Spren and Shadesmar
He tried to concentrate on that feeling, and he sensed something tugging on his soul. It was as if… as if someone was using his mind like a proffered arm to help them climb out of a pit.
Syl exploded into sight in front of him in the shape of a small woman, growling softly, her teeth clenched.
A: Hah. Just try to keep her from Kaladin! Even the Stormfather couldn’t do that. (I just had to include this for the visual. I do adore that little spren.)
The Sibling. The third Bondsmith spren. Not dead after all, not even asleep. But why spend over a year saying nothing? Why let everyone think you were dead?
A: From what we learn later, it’s easy enough to understand why the Sibling stayed in hiding. After a less-than-compatible bond with Melishi, and then being occupied by an Unmade, it’s not really surprising the Sibling was reluctant to make themself known. They seem to be a bit like a shy child in personality anyway, at least to me. Just think how different that personality is from Navani, who seems to have always forged ahead no matter how insecure she was feeling. In a way, I can understand Navani’s bafflement here, and the Sibling’s caution about forming a bond later. They are so very unlike.
L: I’m curious to see whether this proves to be a hindrance or a boon to their continued relationship. I could see it going either way. Either their differences are going to complement one another… or they’re going to clash at every step.
A: Exactly. It may be both, in different settings, too. (I certainly hope they end up with a better relationship than the Sibling had with Melishi, though.) I can’t help thinking that, once she lets herself, Navani would be able to understand the Sibling’s fears, since she’s had plenty of her own. Maybe she can even help the Sibling be a stronger person by learning how to work beyond the fear.
Relationships and Romances
“Kal!” Lirin said, anger peeking through his calm surgeon’s mask. “Don’t be a fool. There’s no point in playing the hero.”
“I’m not playing anything,” Kaladin said. “This is who I am.”
A: Sigh. As a parent with a nearly-adult child, I can kind of relate to the frustration of trying to figure out whether to treat them as an adult or a child. Sometimes they do things that you know are really dumb, because they don’t have the perspective to know how dumb it would be. But then you have to let them make their decisions, and sometimes they turn out to be right after all. Yes, I know I’m in the minority, but I have a lot of sympathy for Lirin.
L: You’re right about watching your kid do dumb things you may not approve of, yes. But it’s how Lirin reacts to these things that’s problematic and, honestly, emotionally abusive. And this is why I do not have sympathy for him as a character at all. Especially as a parent. Is he well written? Yes. But I despise him for how utterly hurtful his words are.
A: I understand what you’re saying, but I still think it’s more sad than despicable. They haven’t spent much time together in the last six years—years which changed Kaladin from the boy Lirin was training into a man broken and shaped by war, slavery, abuse, and power. His parents weren’t part of that transformation, and didn’t get to see it happen over time; they didn’t even know he was alive until it had already happened. Adjusting to that change is not easy, and Lirin isn’t the most flexible person in the world by nature. So yeah, they’re going to clash. I’m okay with it.
Stormfather knows, you’re good at breaking things.
L: It’s little jabs like this that really make me hate Lirin. It’s needlessly cruel, especially now.
A: It’s little moments of bitterness like this that make him a realistic person with realistic flaws. We all slip and say what we’re thinking sometimes, even if it’s neither kind nor necessary.
L: I never said he was unrealistic. Emotionally abusive parents are absolutely realistic. Yeah, we all make mistakes sometimes. But Lirin never realizes this or apologizes for it. He doesn’t try to make amends. He just keeps digging that knife deeper into the wound. Sound familiar? ::cough Moash cough::
A: So… do you expect Lirin to treat Kaladin as a child? Because I don’t. Kaladin is 21 years old now—Roshar years—and I don’t think a sharp disagreement between adults necessarily constitutes “emotional abuse.” Kaladin isn’t in a position subservient to his father; they’re equals at least, and in most ways Kaladin now has more authority than Lirin does. If it weren’t for his fragile mental state, I don’t think it would be such an issue. It may be that Lirin is harsher because of Kaladin’s status; he doesn’t want to see his son acting like the kind of leader who will charge in thoughtlessly and get himself and other people killed needlessly.
L: I absolutely do not expect him to treat him like a child. I expect him to treat him with the care and respect any human being deserves. I refuse to make allowances and excuses for emotionally abusive behavior.
Do you want to see that happen to me? To your mother? To your baby brother?”
“Storm you,” Kaladin whispered. Lirin didn’t care about saving himself; he was not so selfish as that. But he was a surgeon. He knew the vital spots in which to stick a knife.
L: I’m with Kal here. Lirin might be right in this instance, but the way he’s going about this is so heartless.
A: Heartless‽ He’s doing whatever it takes to keep his son from going out there and trying to fight Fused and Regals with a scalpel. Does anyone—even Kaladin—think that’s going to have any effect? I’m with Lirin on this one, though not for the same reasons. At this point, Kaladin is not listening to reason, and there’s not really time to be gentle. If Kaladin went out there at this point, he’d die. His Stormlight would only last until they brought one of those Stormlight-sucking spears to bear, and then he would die. He would be “playing the hero” and he’d soon be a dead hero. If the tower is to have even a slight chance, Kaladin—the only Radiant still awake and free—needs to survive this initial event. And a scalpel is an inadequate weapon for facing down hundreds of Regals, never mind the Fused. IMO, Lirin is justified in using any trick he knows that will work to keep Kaladin from suicide-by-Fused.
L: Aren’t you the one who says “there’s always another way” in our discussions about ethics regarding Teravangian? If he’d taken a moment to think about it, he could have found less hurtful words with which to get across his point.
A: If he’d had a moment to think about it, sure. But that’s my point—there was no time. Kaladin was on the verge of rushing out and trying to take on Raboniel’s army with Adhesion and a scalpel. He wouldn’t even have an ordinary sword, much less his Sylblade. He had to be stopped right here and now.
Of course there are other things going on; as I said earlier, I don’t have the same long-term reasons as Lirin for wanting Kaladin to stay put for the moment. Lirin will later urge Kaladin to just submit and obey, and I disagree with that (though I do sort of understand his perspective). At this point, I just want Kaladin to be careful enough to survive this night so that he can a) get Teft to safety and b) find a way to fight back, when he knows what allies he has. If the only argument that will get through to Kaladin in this moment is the emotional one of not endangering his family (and it is a valid point), I think it’s an acceptable argument.
Bruised and Broken
“Some firemoss addicts have them during withdrawal.”
“He hasn’t touched the stuff in months.”
So he says, Kaladin thought. Teft had lied before.
A: This was heartbreaking. It’s perfectly valid, because Teft had lied before about this very subject, but… we know that’s not it, so it’s painful to have Kaladin even think he might be lying.
L: Yeah, this one hurts. As an addict myself (damn cigarettes) who has absolutely lied to those I’m close to about whether or not I’ve picked it up again, I totally sympathize with Teft. And with Kaladin, for doubting him.
“Red says you don’t speak,” Navani said to the man.
He looked down. Then he shook his head.
“Perhaps you should reconsider,” Navani said.
L: Ugh. Come on, Navani. That’s pretty ableist of you. “Just get over what’s pretty obviously a trauma or even possibly a physical ailment immediately because I am asking you to.”
A: I wonder if she’s ever before known anyone who was mute; just before this she seems to doubt that he really is. It is frustrating, though, because she acknowledged that he doesn’t speak. Why not give him a different way to communicate?
L: Yes! Navani is so smart. You’d think that her problem-solving brain would immediately jump into overdrive on this and try to figure out some alternative.
A: On the bright side, in the later section she pays a little more attention to his way of “speaking,” and asks questions that he can answer— like showing her the vein of garnet that will allow her to speak to the Sibling. She may be impatient with other people’s weaknesses (gee, I wonder where Jasnah gets it!), but not so much that she’ll waste any source of information.
“Something similar just happened to my friend. Another Radiant.”
“Not you though?”
I always live, Kaladin thought, a bitter thought echoing from long ago. So I can keep suffering.
L: Poor, poor Kaladin.
A: And therein lies the heart of his inability to speak the fourth Ideal; he hates that he’s always the one who survives when others die, and he constantly forgets that there are many others who live because of him. Honestly, I wonder if that’s half the reason he wanted to go out there with the scalpel in the first place—because there’s no way he could survive, and then he wouldn’t have to keep seeing other people die.
L: I’m sure it doesn’t help that he’s got the lingering shadow of Moash’s words echoing in his head, too.
A: Damn Moash. (We’re going to be hitting his Interlude soon, and… it’s not going to be pretty.) But you’re totally right: Moash told him, “They’re all going to die, everyone you care about, and you can’t stop it. The only way to win is to end the pain by dying.” (Or words to that effect.) I’m sure that’s been with him the whole time, and this really exacerbates it.
A surgeon’s knife could be a subtle thing, meant to cause as little harm as possible. A delicate contradiction. Like Kaladin himself.
L: This is a beautiful analogy. And it continues here:
It had been designed to heal, but could kill as efficiently. Like Kaladin himself.
L: Really says it all, doesn’t it?
A: Well… “all” from Kaladin’s current perspective. The big difference is that the scalpel is an amoral object, and Kaladin is a thinking, feeling, moral person. Every life he takes affects him, and every life he saves matters. The same is not true of the scalpel. It’s just… more complicated than that.
L: I think Kaladin wishes that he could think of himself as a tool, like the scalpel. As a soldier, I believe that that’s part of the training. But that, of course, is wishful thinking. You can’t just follow orders and expect that the things you do with your own hands won’t affect you. We see this reflected time and again in history, in the PTSD suffered by our veterans.
Kaladin’s fingers wrapped around the knife, and he turned toward the screams. He was needed. Life before death. This was what he did. Yet as he walked toward the door, he found himself laden by a terrible weight. His feet were as if in chains, and his clothing could have been made of lead. He reached the doorway, and found himself panting in a cold sweat. It had been going so well…
He found himself sitting beside the surgery room doorway, his back up against the wall, clutching the knife in front of him and trembling.
L: Another anxiety attack (and/or PTSD response), just like the one he had when they returned from the battle and Adolin came and found him.
A: Poor Kaladin. It’s so bitter, after he just thought maybe he had a chance to get his life together, finally.
L: From a character/writing perspective, it just makes sense. We’re about halfway through the book. There’s no way that Kaladin’s arc is going to continue on an upwards trajectory already. We must fall in order to rise, and oh boy… is Kaladin going to fall.
A: (Danged authors and their narrative arcs, anyway.)
“Cold sweats,” he muttered. “Emotional detachment. Insensibility, accompanied by hyper-recall of traumatic moments.” Someone shouted out on the balcony and he jumped, brandishing the knife. “Severe anxiety…”
L: I love that Kaladin can self-diagnose this way.
A: I kind of love it, but it also kind of scares me. Detaching himself from himself seems… dangerous. Still, self-awareness is usually good in the long run.
Urithiru might continue to fight, but he knew that it had lost the battle long ago.
Like Kaladin himself.
L: Oof. I remember reading this part during the beta (at the height of the first COVID lockdown here in the US) and feeling just as lost as Kaladin did. I think that this book will always hit me different than the others for this reason. I have trouble disconnecting my own trauma from Kaladin’s in this regard. I empathized with him so deeply.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
“I can Lash him,” Kaladin said, reaching for Stormlight. The Light oddly resisted for a moment, then streamed into him from the spheres in his pocket.
A: First hint that something is wrong…
Kaladin commanded the Light into Teft, to Lash him upward in order to make him lighter. And it didn’t work.
A: Second strong evidence. Something is very wrong.
… Adhesion worked but Gravitation didn’t?
A: This won’t make sense to Kaladin for a while, yet, but it’s nice to see that something worked for him. It was kind of a passing remark at the time, but back in Chapter 31 Raboniel told Venli that Adhesion isn’t a true Surge, but a lie Honor came up with and merely presented as a true Surge. (I think she’s wrong, but it works for someone who serves Odium, I guess?) We don’t really know why it works this way, but somehow this one Surge remains unaffected by Voidlight suppression, and it probably does have something to do with Honor’s Investiture keeping it pure. To go off-track just a little (who, me‽) this is why there are only nine brands of Fused: There are no Fused who use Adhesion. According to Raboniel, “true surges are of both Honor and Cultivation” so by that definition she’d be correct. I think we just don’t know enough about the origins of Roshar, and the way Honor and Cultivation changed things, to really understand yet.
Humans
“Soldiers, I need you in here! Spanreeds aren’t working. Who is the fastest runner among you?”
…
“I need you to run to the first floor—use the stairs, not the lifts—and get to the scouting office near the second sector.”
A: Every bit a queen, a leader, and an engineer. Yes, I’m going to gush about Navani again. Deal with it.
L: No argument here. She handles this situation with grace, speed, and intellect.
A: It takes her about three seconds to determine that none of the spanreeds are working, and maybe another two to get a different means of communication going. She sends runners to the same place by different routes to give her message a better chance of arriving, already assuming that if spanreeds aren’t working, the lifts are at best vulnerable. She even sends the last of her guards to the Windrunners, insisting that she’ll manage without guards because right now it’s more important to communicate and regroup.
(Sadly, of course, all twenty of the Windrunners are likely out of commission. The four Knights certainly are, and if the squires aren’t unconscious, they probably have no powers with their Knights in comas.)
Still. For having such limited visibility of what’s going on throughout the tower, I love the way Navani reacts. It’s not just that she refuses to panic, it’s that panic is not anywhere in sight. She just… takes the next step.
Brilliant Buttresses
I don’t think he’s right in the head. Well, pardon, most Windrunners ain’t right in the head. They act like some kind of cult to Stormblessed, Brightness, pardon, that, but they do that.
L: I don’t know why this struck me as amusing. Maybe it’s just that I know that Kaladin’s reaction to this would probably be a long-suffering sigh.
Syl? he thought, throwing himself to his feet, sweat spraying from his skin. “Syl!” he shouted.
“Son, a surgeon must be calm during—”
“Storm off with the lectures for once, Father!” Kaladin shouted. “Syl!”
L: To quote GLaDOS from Portal 2, “he says what we’re all thinking!”
Well. There’s so much we still didn’t cover, but we’ve done what we can do. We’ll leave further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 40, in which Navani does all the things she can think of to protect her people, and it actually looks hopeful for a minute or two.
Alice is a Sanderson beta reader and administrator of two fandom Facebook groups. She is currently going four directions at once, so if you see a few random bits of her floating by, don’t panic.
Lyndsey (she/her) has been a Sanderson beta reader since Words of Radiance and is also a fantasy author herself. She’s been incredibly busy lately as costume manager and actress for Robin Hood’s Faire in Harwinton, CT, and she wishes you all a very happy pride month.
A: I’m curious about this one. Does the inversion of that particular protection (the garnet group) affect the rhythms in the tower? Is it the presence of so many Fused and Regals? Or is it the partial corruption of the Sibling and the fact that there’s now Voidlight infiltrating the tower systems? I guess the first and third of those are connected, aren’t they?
L: Very interesting. Garnet is associated with blood and the Lightweavers, and hence is also associated with the Lightweaver Surges of Illumination and Transformation. I would theorize that there’s something going on here in regards to Transformation rather than Illumination. (It just doesn’t seem like Illumination could be “important” enough to be affecting something as major as the protections around the Tower.) Something about the connection between the Sibling and the Cognitive Realm, perhaps?
I’m fairly certain there’s a WoB out there that Illumination covers waveforms in general, both light and sound. Aside from the fact that there are a lot of scary things you can do with lasers and sonic, Illumination seems to fit very well with messed-up Rhythms.
@@@@@ Alice and Lyndsey
I love your discussion regarding Lirin. As a lawyer I would say that you both present some compelling arguments.
When I was first reading the book I was very annoyed with Lirin’s attitude, especially in later chapters. Now, during the more close re-read I think I understand his motivation a little bit better.
Overall I completely agree that at least he is a very realistic character. I guess we all know similar people IRL and maybe we have mixed feelings toward them too.
It does seem as if a lot of the antagonism in this book comes from aggrieved (spren) children responding the the series of events clustered around the Recreance (not just the Recreance). Everyone seized on their own childish explanation for why it wasn’t their fault that their parents traumatically abandoned them (and it wasn’t their fault that their parents traumatically abandoned them), which pares down to how it was someone else’s fault that their parents abandoned them.
Anyway, one of things that sparked that was the thought “…the Sibling is a brat!”. I suppose they are, at that.
I find it hard to see Lirin as emotionally abusive. That’s a very specific accusation, and I’m not sure his forthright beliefs about not liking his son being a soldier really measure up to it. It’s not emotionally abusive if someone doesn’t like your choices and lets you know about it.
I also have a great deal of sympathy for his point of view (if not his way of expressing it) because, if you distance yourself from Kaladin’s perspective, Lirin’s not half right. Alethi culture revolves around war to an absurd extent. When they can’t fight the world, they fight each other. It seems like every day is the battle of the Somme, and they’re mostly laughing about it.
Into the bargain, we know this isn’t a wholly natural state of affairs. It’s at least partially because of the Thrill – the intervention of a supernatural being has made their entire culture addicted to warfare. Every Alethi is a proto-Blackthorn, someone who stepped back from committing serial war crimes because a twist of fate meant they harmed someone they personally cared for.
It doesn’t seem unreasonable to me for a civilian (and specifically a doctor) who’s watched this mincing machine all their lives to hold the military in contempt, and have an extreme reaction to their son being a big part of it. Even in a ‘just’ war. I think calling Lirin emotionally abusive is to mistake Kaladin’s being a major character for an endorsement of Alethi society.
I’ve got a theory. First, when Kaladin first fought the pursuer and had his abilities dampened, could he use adhesion? I can’t remember. But my theory is that because there are no fused that use adhesion, why would the towers defenses dampen it? Sure it’s inverted now but if there were no protections against fused using adhesion before (because that didn’t exist) then it makes sense that there’s no protections against radiants using adhesion now.
Sorry Lyn, but I have to agree with Alice on Lirin. He didn’t have time to discuss things rationally with Kaladin, and he suffers from his own anxiety over causing a son’s death. He doesn’t want to lose one again. And Kaladin’s actions do put Lirin, Hesina, and Oroden in jeopardy.
I’m thinking Lirin is standing in as a parent archetype. In a much smaller way I had this sort of relationship with my mother. She certainly loved me and in her way showed it often but she also crushed my personality because it was so different from hers. She wanted me to be like her and when I wasn’t I was wrong and when I was wrong I was a disapointment.
Parenting must be the hardest job on the planet. It must seem like a betrayal when your children turn against your life choices. Lirin is caught in a bind and he lashes out, sometimes to protect kaladin and sometimes to hurt him. He can’t understand Kaladin’s choices.
So no chapter recap this week? :) Right into the discussion…
Does anybody else think that Odium is an unusual name for one of the Shards? I mean, all the other Shard names are pretty common words, but Odium is a very uncommon word. (even its adjective form odious, while less uncommon, is a fairly unused word) I have a half-baked half-formed theory that there is something important about the name. The epigraph discussion above made me come back to the theory and examine it, because of the use of Wrath as another name for Odium, and why didn’t Brandon use Wrath. Could there be a hidden meaning in the name?
IIRC, Odium was a late-game change. He felt that it better fit the character of the Shard. Most of the Shards went through several name possibilities before he picked the specific ones we now have. That being said, I would bet that we will see some pretty nifty hidden meanings and twists on expectations.
@10 I’ve been wondering for a while now why Adonalsium would have let itself be torn apart when it should have possessed near perfect foresight and it should have easily been able to foil any plans to harm it. Per your comment, perhaps Odium is the quality of God’s hatred for itself. It might have been part of the original construct or altered/introduced/mutated but such a self loathing could very well have actively engineered its own destruction or interfered with its actions to protect itself. The people who shattered Adonalsium could have corrupted Wrath into Odium. This is, of course, assuming that these traits were present in the original entity. Word of Brandon indicates that the Shattering could have resulted in different groupings of shards so it could just be that Odium was a vanishingly small part of Adonalsium that was focused on as a weak spot and was never a primary driving motive or force before the Shattering.
Self loathing is a trait that’s rarely associated with a big g God but in the Cosmere it could derive from anything as simple as seeing that beings created in its own image (Yolen humans and perhaps others) were consumed with evil ambitions or something as complex as a quirk of Realmantic theory from creating the galaxy and sentient beings.
@11 That’s actually something to think about. Odium was described as God’s own divine hatred, and Rayse sought it out specifically. I wonder if he’s spent a million years hearing “You’re a loser, Rayse. You can’t do anything right, Rayse. You just break crap, you never fix things, Rayse. Why can’t you just reform? Oh, right, because you hate yourself so much you can’t stand to reunite!”
It does answer certain questions, like why he refuses to take other Shards — if he changes, he might not be driven to kill himself anymore. And why he almost seems like Ruin — he really wants to kill everything so he can’t see the great and mighty works of Ozyman — I mean Adonalsium, and despair that he can’t measure up. Rayse probably wanted to be the Devil and ended up the universe’s biggest whiny emo. Move over, Squall!
Alice. I agree with you. The bond between the Sibling and Navani is more akin to a shotgun wedding. They both needed each other. Without the bond at the moment they bonded, both would have died (or in the case of the Sibling, the equivalent of death from their perspective). I am sure it is not a coincidence that the Stormfather also did not have much agency when he bonded Dalinar. From what I remember of WoR, Dalinar said the 2nd Bondsmith Ideal. At that point, Stormfather had little choice. True, told Dalinar that he would not be a weapon. However, this eventually becomes a hollow promise when Dalinar forces the Stormfather to become a sword to activate the Oathgate. It is only because of Dalinar’s values/morals that he is for the most part willing to honor this promise. If someone were to waive the proverbial magic wand and alter Dalinar’s personality to a ruthless, power-hungry person bent on subjugation of everyone else by force, he could force the Stormfather to be a Stormblade.
Is there a WoB as to why he chose to use the “they” pronoun for the Sibling? For the purposes of the story Brandon is telling, IMO, the same result could have occurred (the bonding of Navani and the Sibling in the exact way which happens in RoW) irrespective of whether the Sibling was a he, she, it, or they.
Alice and Lyndsey. I think in the end Navani will be a good “partner” for the Sibling. I do not think Navani will run roughshod over the Sibling. IMO, Navani is someone who seeks consensus. Navani has strong opinions. However, her modus operandi is to convince those who disagree with her that she is right. If Navani thinks that something is the best way and the Sibling disagrees, Navani will try to convince the Sibling otherwise. If she cannot convince the Sibling, she will keep trying. However, Navani will not tell the Sibling so sad, too bad and do what she wants anyways. Further, I think Navani is not so rigid in her beliefs that she will not change her mind if the Sibling convinces Navani that a better option exists than doing what Navani originally wanted.
I am with Lyndsey regarding her opinions about Lirin. I will wait until a few chapters later (after Lirin’s reaction to Kaladin killing the Fused in the clinic) to discuss my opinions of Lirin in detail.
Now that Teft said his 3rd Ideal, can he even get addicted to firemoss? Wouldn’t Stormlight heal the affects of firemoss from his body the same was Shallan could use Stormlight to remove alcohol from her system. Both are “poisons” (as Pattern once described alcohol).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@@@@@ 13 Andrew HB,
While he could heal the effects that firemoss does to his body as he is consuming it, I think the physiological damage is so severe and long-term that he might not be able to see himself apart from his addiction. As I deal with my own, I understand my brain is now wired to receive those chemical bursts as a “reward” for my behavior. Since I’ve dealt with this for nigh 30 years, there’s not a lot of my life where I was “clean.” Possibly he could learn to let Stormlight release dopamine and such chemicals to blunt the effect of not having the moss, but the escapism it offers will always be lacking, and that was why he started taking it. And if my experience is any indication, he will be waiting a long time before he feels safe letting that guard down.
If you read carefully, Brandon tells us that Taravangian is about to die. (Yes, I do post provocative stuff on purpose sometimes, now that you mention it.) In explaining why Rayse had to go, he mentions that an adversary loses his menace after repeatedly failing.
Taravangian has never succeeded. Not once. Yes, he seems to succeed in tactical things (like becoming Veden King), but in the end he fails to accomplish his greater purpose.
So, Mr. T. has to go, probably in Book 5.
Red’s collapse underlines how lucky Team Not Odium is that Navani is not yet a Knight Radiant. She’d be unconscious starting right now at the very beginning of the Fused Occupation, which would not have worked out well for the side.
By the way: why didn’t she pass out cold as soon as she said the Immortal Words? Are Bondsmiths immune to Raboniel’s suppressor field? Now that I write that, it would have been a great twist: at that moment of high hope, she speaks the Words, the Sibling accepts her … and she faints as Moash approaches. (Then Dabbid or someone saves the day.)
Dabbid is not the first mute person in the Cosmere that we have seen. I don’t see a very useful parallel to a certain God-Emperor, but his story is not over yet, so who knows? (I wonder if Vivenna would have seen it, if they had met before he gained the power of speech.)
@Brent: “Endowment” is a common word for gift?
@15 I can actually argue that taravangian getting a power boost means he actually has to live. He now has more resources and an ability to succeed now, especially since his predecessor, who lets face it was growing more predictable and might even have lost the challenge, because he was now trapped. Taravangian is not, we can see that with him succeeding at the one thing that not even rayse could do, and which scares us: succeeding at tricking Hoid, the author avatar of the cosmere. Things are now unpredictable again, because we know, from the etipaths of this part and from the wax and Wayne series, Someone is planning a assault on scadriel. And it isn’t rayse
@15 – Brandon Sanderson wrote a short story, published here on Tor, called Firstborn, whose plot—and the entire basis of the plot twist (Brandon’s best plot twist, IMO)—revolves around the concept of someone constantly failing. So, take that for what it’s worth…
The red veins they use to communicate with the Sibling are the spren’s “blood vessels” and are probably made of garnet. The flow of Stormlight (or other light) through the veins could create a protective “magnetic field”.
Shouldn’t there also be a Surge that is only Cultivation? That wouldn’t be a mix of Honor and Cultivation, either, reducing the number to 8.
@18 Just a couple theories, but maybe Cultivation doesn’t have the ability to make a surge on her own, whereas Honor might? Not sure. We also don’t know for sure that adhesion is purely honor, that’s just what we have heard Raboniel say.
Also, you’d think the surge that powers “regrowth” (progression) would be mostly of cultivation, maybe even solely cultivation, but the Fused can still use that.
My two cents from growing up with one bad parent and one abusive parent: Lirin’s not abusive. A horrible father, at times, but there’s a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge f***ing gap between “occasional reactionary barbs and not supporting your child” & “actively impairing them and calling them garbage every chance you get.” IMO, calling bad parenting ‘abuse’ lessens the gravity of the actual crime by implying that malicious intent doesn’t really matter – like calling a drunken brawl over a spilled drink ‘attempted murder’ or calling a nonviolent protest a ‘riot.’
Edit: That said, I’m definitely desensitized to familial abuse and it’s clearly had an impact on my siblings and cousin since we all either do the same crap or self-medicate to avoid it, but I’m still of the opinion that there’s a vast chasm between acting like an asshole because you’re a flawed human and actively intending to inflict pain on someone you have control over. If you’re reading this and have a counter-argument, please let me hear it, I have plenty of people I probably need to cut out of my life if Lirin’s behavior is generally considered ‘too toxic.’
See 22, below
@20 On the one hand, Intent Is Not Magic. It’s a factor, but people can still definitely do horribly abusive things while honestly believing they’re helping their child (like, ABA or gay conversion ‘therapy’).
On the other hand, Lirin isn’t doing those things. What he’s doing is more… passive? I don’t remember all the things he’s said, but I feel like they’re in a grey area of “definitely shitty, edging into emotional abuse” and I think that there isn’t a clear line between “abusive” and “not abusive” – but some of the factors are how hurtful it is and how frequent it is. And to muddy the waters further, the hurtfulness of words is very subjective.
@21 It’s funny, and kind of surreal, being able to re-read your own post from a day earlier in a clearer state of mind and recognize your defense mechanisms for what they are. I realized that my family’s -currently- trying to force me to ignore the things I’m passionate about so I’ll take a path they approve of [for those of you who use cannabis to treat anxiety or PTSD, definitely give Mendo Purps a try if you can, it’s unbelievably introspective and peaceful]. Anyway, it was helpful to re-assess things, and if you hadn’t commented I probably wouldn’t have done so – thanks.
Lirin may not be trying to force Kal to change, but he’s definitely maintaining the rift between them. I still want to give him credit for trying to bridge the gap, but it’s not much considering he also keeps widening the gap.
Wow, it’s been a crazy week and I’m just now catching up with the comments!
Alex @@.-@ – re: Lirin, VERY well said. If the reader were not so firmly on Kaladin’s side by this time, it would be easier for most people to see that Lirin has a valid point in his opposition to the Vorin societal glorification of killing people. As you say – if the Alethi don’t have an outside enemy to fight, they fight each other, because being a soldier is the highest calling they have. It’s not a healthy structure. Not saying Lirin is perfect or anything, but he’s not exactly wrong.
Jeremy @8 – Um… woops. Not quite sure how we managed to leave that out, but obviously we did! Sorry about that.
AndrewHB @13 – Dalinar didn’t force the Stormfather to become a sword. He just pulled raw power through from somewhere and rammed it into the Oathgate keyhole, but a) it wasn’t the Stormfather per se, and b) it wasn’t a sword. True, the Stormfather didn’t appreciate it at all, and at best Dalinar was bending the agreement into a pretzel, but… we don’t know for sure what he did. (FWIW, Sanderson has stated that none of the Bondsmiths have spren Blades.)
As for why he chose to use “they” for the Sibling, the Sibling answers that question themself: “Radiant spren put on a show, pretending as if they are male or female, malen or femalen, when they are neither.” The Sibling is, in that scene, clearly contemptuous of the spren who try shape themselves like humans with regard to biology or time passage. Sanderson has not, as far as I know, talked about why the Sibling feels that way.
Carl @15 – I’m not sure I buy your argument about Taravangian. I think he will ultimately lose his attempt to take over and rule the entire Cosmere for its own good, but I think he’s going to cause a lot of trouble along the way, and it’s going to be at least the end of the SA series before he dies. Probably later.
Re: Navani not passing out, Bondsmiths have Adhesion, which is not shut down by the suppressor, so that might be part of it. It may also have to do with the surge of power that comes with speaking an Ideal; she was so massively Invested in that moment that the suppressor couldn’t affect her. Then, of course, the first thing she did was to start pushing the Voidlight out of the tower’s systems.
@Wetlandernw: I was really sort of (jokingly) telling Brandon* how I would like to see things written, more than I was analyzing this book.
I don’t like Taravangian as a character, so I was giving reasons to write him out.
Similarly, I prefer stories in which non-demigods can affect events, so I would have liked an ending where someone without supernatural powers (Dabbid) saved the day.
As for the Adhesion thing, though … Windrunners other than Kaladin did pass out, notably Teft. It seems to be related to oath-count rather than Surge. The Fused were worried that Jasnah would be immune, and manipulated things to get her away, as I recall.
*(No, I don’t think Brandon is reading Tor comments, although Peter has sometimes.)
Maybe Navani didn’t pass out because her power is linked to Towerlight and not Stormlight. Lift was awake even though she has not reached the fourth Ideal (I think!!) as she is powered by Lifelight.
@Dee, I think you might have something there.
My take on Lirin is that he is right in this specific instance (as well as in his general philosophy towards the Alethi) but this isn’t all happening in a vacuum and his words to Kaladin have a lot of baggage around them. There are certainly worse parents, but he’s not father of the year, either, and whether or not it’s ‘abuse’, it still has an impact on Kaladin.
Is there a WOB about Odium specifically being about self-hatred? I guess I just assumed that ‘divine hatred’ meant something like ‘hatred of evil’ or maybe more of what you’d see in the ‘Old Testament God’ (to be a bit simplistic about it).